Saturday, June 14, 2008

Are we 'a Christian country'?

I'll let others decide how relevant a question this is in other countries, but I doubt this is just a question here in the UK!

in the UK this question has become part of a big debate about national identity, and various people, including but not exclusively church leaders, are using the phrase 'we are a Christian country' as a background to make various points in this debate. the idea seems to be that because 'we are a Christian country' politicians ought to make certain moral decisions on embryo technology, or what we should or should not see on TV, or, post 9/11 et al the place of Muslims in society. But what does this phrase mean? is it true? has it ever been true? and perhaps most importantly does this claim help or hinder the coming of the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven?

if the phrase means a nation of people who are Christians, well how is this defined? if we mean people actively pursuing the Christian faith as essential to their own lives active in the Church community and becoming more 'Christ-like' as they seek to follow Jesus; well this has always only applied to a minority of people in the UK. i leave you to judge how it is in other places, but offer one observation; even in nations in which the majority go to church regularly and nearly all profess Christian faith, how deep that faith goes into the lives of some followers might well be an issue of concern. on this basis we certainly have never been a 'christian country'.

what we have been however is an 'officially Christian country' for centuries, so when people appeal to this identity, what is it they are appealing to? i think it is the 'two pronged approach' of Christendom. This occurs when the political elite declare the country to be 'Christian' and thus tell all its citizens they are now members of the State church. the church then seeks to enable these citizens to practice the faith they are now officially a part of. the definition of a Christian then tends to become 'a member of the Church' and depending on the tradition of the state church this is measured by things like Baptism, often of infants, paying church tax, often in the past at least obligatory, or simply living in a parish and thus being seen as the parishioner of a local church. Such approaches can define a country as Christian, but not at all mean that it is a country of Christian people.

Needless to say this approach is very much that of Europe, and to a lesser extent Europe's one time colonies, though many of them, like the US threw out this model after independence. However even countries without a state church tradition can operate a form of Christendom, and i would suggest the US does for instance. in these countries 'Christian values' are viewed as part of the social fabric, and churchgoing is just as 'expected' as if the state told people to go. in such places there may also be many people who claim Christian adherence, even perhaps go to Church yet seem to posses a faith that is more about good social standing and being a good citizen than anything else.

now there are things in many western societies that have been shaped by it's Christian heritage, whatever form of 'Christendom' we are talking about. these include attitudes to human dignity, law, science etc...though some of these had to fight Church opposition in some quaters to emerge as a legacy of that Christian tradition. and i think part of the 'we are Christian country' appeal is to this legacy, and i think there are good things here to look back on.

But here's the problem. the appeal to being 'a Christian country' is therefore two things, an appeal to a positive legacy of what has happened in the past due to the role Christianity has played in our country; and an appeal to a Christendom identity which has led to that shaping of society in the past, but has never been a personal identity of many of the people in that nation. this is why De Tocqueville suggested, looking at America, that democracy would be the end of Christendom. once people become active in asserting their own views in the political process and increasingly operate as individuals in the social and political sphere they want society to reflect there personal identity. from this perspective being told 'we are a Christian country' looks not like a statement of a shared identity but an imposition on my personal choice and self-identity. Equally the appeal to history Can also be contested and is. for many today the Christian legacy is viewed as violence, oppression, sexism, destruction of the planet and the resistance of social and scientific progress. to many people 'we are a Christian country' sounds like 'can we go back to the middle ages please so the Church can have all it's power back and oppress you some more'.

let's face it, why are some people wanting to continually remind 'we are Christian country'? Because the Church has largely lost its power and influence, for good or ill in nations where it once could both bless or oppress that nations citizens through considerable power and influence.

at this point i know some in the Church will want to say things like 'but in our last national census 72% of people said they were Christian' and 'surveys have shown that most people want our nation to be run on Christian values'. both these things are true, but what do they mean? well ask people in a survey if they support traditional religious morality (this has been done) and they will resoundingly tell you they don't. so how does all this square up? i think the key is this, a certain legacy based on the idea that i should love my neighbour and value fairness and justice is seen as part of a Christian legacy, and this is what people mean by Christian values. people who identify with this are happy to call themselves Christians, though actually this label is being used less and less by successive generations. this is the root of the classic phrase i have often heard when taking funerals. the deceased i was often told, never went to church and wasn't religious, but 'was as good a christian as the next person'. this effectively meant they were a nice person who tried to make a positive contribution to society. what might 'we are a Christian country' mean to such a person. well the answer is it all depends on what is being defended or promoted on this basis. if it agrees with their view the person using the phrase will be defended for 'speaking out for our traditions and national values'. if however the position being supported on the basis that 'we are a Christian country' is not to a person's own liking, and would thus be labelled 'traditional religious morality', then the person using the phrase is attacked for meddling in politics, and likely to be tarred with the image of the Church as historical oppressor. and we are back with De Tocqueville.

the reality is that a modern democratic society can never by identity be a 'Christian country' and the use of this phrase does not promote the Church's influence i think it actually undermines it. it simply serves to remind everyone that the church is a thing of the past, that we used to be a Christian nation and that whilst some bits of that legacy where good we no longer need the Church to tell us that, we the citizens now decide what are 'good Christian values' and what are 'bad traditional religious morality'. anyone caught using the phrase 'we are a Christian country' is at best well meaning but irrelevant and at worst a power mad oppressor who wants to run the country their way and not our way. Christians need to wake up to this and start admitting we are not a Christian country.

But does this mean the Church or Christians have nothing to say to society or ought, as some like to tell them, to stick to people's spiritual lives? absolutely not. I began this post talking of the identity crisis that is the context for such claims. with that goes some sense that there are things in our past we have perhaps lost, like good relationships with our neighbours, streets in which doors can be left unlocked and no-one will rob you, etc. there are also current issues we don;t know how to face, globalisation, food shortages, global warming, increasing social diversity, and more. as a Christian i think there is much from my faith tradition we have to offer by way of vision when facing such questions. Churches have much to offer in their locations as a positive influence.

when we stop trying to claim some privileged position because 'we are a Christian country' and admit we are not we then get freed up to start fulfilling a calling to offer vision in our nation in the only way we can, by inspiring individuals, whether in government or in the local street, by what we say and what we do. if this country or any country has a Christian future it will not be because of any status the church or the religion holds in society, it will be because people encounter the vision of the Kingdom of God and see it transforming the lives of Christians so that people in our society say ' i want to be like them' and 'i want our society to be just like that'. and perhaps here is the sobering truth, the claim to be 'a christian country' is something the church Can hide behind because actually it fears it cannot be valued simply on its own merits. ironically whilst this may be a well placed fear, there is also much going on that if bought out into the light would in fact commend much of what Christians are doing as indeed inspirational.


Jesus said...

The United States was founded on religious freedom...NOT Christianity. And what is the first thing the "Christians" did when they got to the colonies? Persecuted people they thought were witches and killed them.
The truth is from the beginning of this "faith" that is supposed to win others over by love and compassion - the attributes of Christ himself - they've given people a a Christian or die. Perhaps you've heard of the Crusades.
Better yet, under the guise that the Jews were "God's" chosen people, we helped kicked the Palesitinians out of their homes to get bonus points with God.
If that's Christianity or any of the acts like these...I don't think any country should be Christian. Try Satan...he's a good guy.

Steve said...

hi Jesus, and i notice you've just set up a new Blog 'What woiuld Jesus do?'

but to your post here...indeed the US has embodied religious freedom and i totally approve, indeed as you suggest i think Jesus would have approved of religous freedom...unfortuntely following the making of Christinaity the official religion of the Roman Empire the Church developed the unpleasnt tradtion you cite.

i am glad to say there has always been a Christian tradition in opposition to this and in opposition to the very unsavoury misison approach you also cite. that of course does not excuse the terroble things done in jesus name, but does perhaps offer some hope of a different way?

so in the end i agree, i don't think any country ever should have been Christian anyway, but would rather like to live in a country where people were like Jesus.

Pastor Phil said...


Good to have you on the block of thoughts here. Thanks for the Christian Nation correction.

liturgy said...

I have arrived here
from the Facebook Christian Bloggers Network
I hope you will visit my site on Christian worship and spirituality “Liturgy”
I hope you will link to it.
Let me know so I acknowledge that and link back.

Martin said...

Interesting post Steve.

Of course the UK is not a Christian country in the sense of everyone living here being Christian, but then again we are greatly influenced by a long Christian tradition which influences a lot of our values as a nation. Our laws, tolerance of others, the welfare state, etc.

Christianity is still as far as I understand the official religion of the UK, and the Queen being the head of the Church of England. Note that I said Church of England, which is not the entire picture when it comes to the church of God.

I am sure you are aware that many congregations in other denominations are in fact growing and not declining. I think that this has a lot to do with tradition versus authentic bible based Christianity whereby the believer will have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour and have a personal day to day relationship with Him.

I think that there are good and bad aspects to being described as a Christian country. On the one hand the understanding of what it is to be Christian is completely lost in translation to the unbeliever who observes Britain's moral decline as can be seen in so many different areas. On the other hand we do still hold to much that is good in this nation and to much that has its foundations firmly in the Christian faith.

Steve said...

thanks for the comments. firslty indeed what i think is good is positive Christina influence on society, but is that best acheived by some kind of state privilage or by the influence of faith on people's lives? i think the latter.

as to Cof E and other tradtions or denominations growing. certainly the patterns of church growth and decline are not uniform. also most church growth is from people leaving one church to join another. this makes sure statements about particualr tradtions or denominations difficult, because patterns of peopel coming to faith, changing church and leaving church for no church are happening accross the board. there are certian trends, there is net movment amnongst male christians from more traditional churches to newer more pentecostal ones, however female chrsitians are net moving in the opposite direction. on the whole all styles of church bar one are shrinking, just some are shrinking slower than others, so the effective of the above is not that pentecostal churches or charismatic churches are growing on average, just they are shrinking far slower. of course there are individual churches that are growing, but that seems ot eb the case in all traditions, the reality is that local churches of all styles are judged by a very consumer orientated people and they gradually transfer to the churches they percieve do what they are looking for best. of coruse there are also churches doing a very good job of wining new people from ex church or no church backgrounds. african churches are the exception and are growing fast but only amongst their own ethnic grouping. so yes there are growing churches, but you have to ask why they are growing

Martin said...

Thanks for the reply Steve.

Yes, I think the influence of faith on peoples lives is key.

I am certainly not into an established church linked to state and Government philosophy, because I think that this is harmful in many ways and can lead to a diluted version of Christianity.

True that charasmatic and pentecostal churches are growing through people leaving more traditional places of worship, but ask yourself why it is that people are moving place of worship.

I think you'll find that attendance in the Roman Catholic church is growing also as a result of migrants from Eastern Europe.

Pryze said...

great your initiative of putting out questions that tend to plague the church here in the US...check out my christian youth blog at

Steve said...

thanks for stopping by, every blessing to you and the blog

TonyTheProf said...

I would say that the UK is a "Christian country" insofar as the legal framework, social customs and rites of passage, and educational system have all come historically from the Christian heritage. For example, with respect to the legal framekwork, same-sex marriages are still out, and polygamy likewise (which is now causing problems here as in other places eg Canada, where immigrants come in who have legally recognised (in their own country) polygamous marriages. The educational system certainly used to have school assemblies with hymns and readings from the bible, even in non-church schools back in the 1970s, but this has definitely changed in favour of multicultural or secular assemblies. I remember an ads in the 1970s which took "a village chistening" as the central hook. This rite of passage has declined, and funerals are often more secular, or as one I was at this year, have what used to be well known hymns that the majority don't know. New agers (druids, wiccans etc) are also producing naming rites, handfastings (even if they also need a registry office), and their own funeral rites. And there are in the UK many different cultures with their own rites - for the Hindu, cremation is the custom, not the exception. The last significant change comes with cruelty. Back in the 1980s, Clive James used to poke fun at sadistic Japanese game shows. Now as "reality TV", they have their UK counterparts, and this reminds me more of the Roman desire for entertainment in circuses than anything Christian. It is a change of attitude in how people enjoy watching others suffering for fun, and I do wonder how far we are from Robert Sheckley's Science Fictions which draw on trends like this and extrapolated them.