tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.comments2023-09-05T08:55:56.301+00:00On Earth as in HeavenStevehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comBlogger293125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-64111694700017334312013-06-25T18:16:08.449+00:002013-06-25T18:16:08.449+00:00Thanks Steve for clearing this up. I suspected som...Thanks Steve for clearing this up. I suspected something like this from previous experience of the media where, for the most part, the journo tends to go in with the story half structured already on one of a handful of storylines and relgion has in their heads a rather restricted stock. I wish they'd stick with the 'ethic' that my radio station mentor at the Beeb passed onto me: you should strive to make sure that people you represent in your pieces recognise themselves and feel properly represented.Andiihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03545699854077420349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-65610750675840983902013-06-25T10:32:47.610+00:002013-06-25T10:32:47.610+00:00Alexa
thanks - and Isiah 66 - and of course Jesus ...Alexa<br />thanks - and Isiah 66 - and of course Jesus describing himself as a mother hen - so yes the feminine is not absent from the bible <br /><br />words - they matter but i think often when it comes to 'religion' - a loaded word ;o) - words tend to be imprecise they are of course metaphors. often i think in the kind of discussion/argument you mentioned the issue is not about finding the right words - that is often impossible - but recognizing the legitimacy of the words others use to express their own practice. unless that happens it's a power play <br /><br />sorry to hear about the difficult path you have walked inside the church and beyond. i hope you are now somewhere you feel more hospitable Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-46263490966874047632013-06-25T10:24:28.040+00:002013-06-25T10:24:28.040+00:00Light Shadow
st Anselm is early 12th Century as i...Light Shadow<br /><br />st Anselm is early 12th Century as is the prayer but not in the Church of England prayer book until the current one which dates back to the 1990s - so doubt it was in the 17th Century Episcopalian prayer book - don't know if it is in their modern one - it would not surprise me if it was but don't know the answer.<br /><br />as for the Trinity and Mom and Son - yes worthy of its own discussion - it would indeed be a lot easier to have a Holy family in heaven and three distinct deities - in which case it would of course make no sense to talk of Jesus the male son as mother - but the Christian tradition has left us something more complex in which our earthly experience of the Trinity and language used for it does not actually describe the reality and so Jesus on earth - human male Jew Jesus as part of the Trinity embraces both genders and transcends both - mmm maybe worth another thread ;o)<br /><br />we will indeed have to see where this topic goes on the various threads and blogs that have picked it up - some of which i have seen others i haven't but have been told about - also waiting to see what's happening on the Christian forums - those i know about have on the whole been sensible - but there the ones where people know me it's the others that may be more 'interesting' Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-37279757907794768872013-06-25T09:12:13.890+00:002013-06-25T09:12:13.890+00:00There is also Psalm131, as I'm sure you know, ...There is also Psalm131, as I'm sure you know, Steve. :)<br />I'm a former churchwarden, accepted for priesthood training but didn't accept due to divorce. Wanted for lay readership, a few years a later, but someone complained I was living in sin. My bishop - a lovely man - was hugely embarrassed. The shame was that I was slipping away due to theological and gender issues, and that was the final straw. (I was in the St Albans see at the time, as it happens).<br />Oddly enough, as a pagan I found myself fighting a similar battle. I was probably the main fighter within the Pagan Federation to gain recognition from a heavily wiccan-influenced majority that "male and female aspect of deity" didn't cut the mustard for reconstructed religions. I met a lot of attempts to coax us into interpreting things to please us, while the words stood - in that case, I argued for my co-religionists, the words had no meaning at all, so why would (for example) a Heathen wish to bother? Most recons pay careful attention to words.<br />The step beyond the Telegraph rubbish is, of course, the actual dialogue going on. I do hope that, if the CofE wishes to have that dialogue with pagans, it doesn't fall into the same trap I spent so long fighting against. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01400642308155115780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-54079141322434952552013-06-25T02:27:50.829+00:002013-06-25T02:27:50.829+00:00hmmm well I'm not sure "Mom" would a...hmmm well I'm not sure "Mom" would agree with you calling her by her son's name, but ok lol was that in the one from 1627 edition (i believe that was the one the American Episcopalians were using before the first modern revision in about the 70s was made (i'm a former Episcopalian as well as a number of other "formers" lol) well this isn't the place for a long discussion on the aspects of the Christian Trinity...so tempting to derail the thread tho...<br /><br />have not checked the blog since seeing the link to this there...but as my teacher would say, we shall see...lolAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06965918716921170538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-40585726822249510392013-06-24T23:19:32.785+00:002013-06-24T23:19:32.785+00:00Light shadow
thank you - actually the Anglican chu...Light shadow<br />thank you - actually the Anglican church has an official prayer in its current worship book praising Jesus as mother and talking of drinking spiritual milk from her breast - actually a very ancient prayer of a former Archbishop of Canterbury St Anslem so not just the third person of the Trinity ;o) it may not surprise you that this prayer is 'optional' but it is there. in truth until all persons of the Trinity are seen as expressing the feminine and masculine divine we have more to do. <br /><br />i hope that in spite of the concern this has caused the discussions that have ensued are indeed something we all grow from <br /><br />every blessingStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-81160140369616530632013-06-24T22:07:30.605+00:002013-06-24T22:07:30.605+00:00Thank you for taking the time to write this respon...Thank you for taking the time to write this response. It was news to me also that at least the Anglicans are viewing the 3rd Person of the Trinity as the Divine Feminine...that MUST be creating an interesting inter-denominational discussion lol however, it is good to have the truth of the matter and be able to allay the fears many of us in the Pagan community have voiced in the discussion I joined about the article. However, it has been quite an interesting discussion covering various aspects of the past, current and potential future connections.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06965918716921170538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-56993567865596033562013-06-24T18:00:16.931+00:002013-06-24T18:00:16.931+00:00Kathryn
all OK but i understand the frustration t...Kathryn <br />all OK but i understand the frustration thanks for the support Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-23875978120856961232013-06-24T17:58:40.465+00:002013-06-24T17:58:40.465+00:00thanks for the info Richardthanks for the info RichardStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-24562091814305605902013-06-24T17:57:45.418+00:002013-06-24T17:57:45.418+00:00Beyond thanks for the link will have a listen whe...Beyond thanks for the link will have a listen when i can <br /><br />OK Pagans are currently not part of the national inter faith network in much of the UK - they are now i am glad to say in Scotland. this is not a C of E only policy, but as the largest group in the interfaith network they are in many ways the brokers. a number of us myself included have tried to get this changed. <br /><br />there are a number of issues - one is a distinction made between world religions and new religious movements which means that the later aren't part of the inter faith network - so it isn't just Pagans it's Mormons, Unitarians, Hare Krishna's, Scientologists etc. one of the fears is let the Pagans in and everyone else will follow -this can be handled easily - the real issue is anti-Pagan feeling the issue is by who? what is often said is that it is the Jews and Muslims who view Pagans as historic enemies - possibly but which Jews and Muslims and it is Anglicans who say this on their behalf? mmm anyway not good much work to be done but the Scots achievement is encouraging. Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-10768220991018325312013-06-24T17:49:50.092+00:002013-06-24T17:49:50.092+00:00Yewtree
yes all religion getting misunderstood me...Yewtree<br /><br />yes all religion getting misunderstood me thinksStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-62961207507666921422013-06-24T17:48:58.672+00:002013-06-24T17:48:58.672+00:00Ashley - rather liked getting a post from Doreen V...Ashley - rather liked getting a post from Doreen Valiente - blue plaque of course at the weekend and i thought a good radio 4 news piece too. <br /><br />thanks for your wisdom re the news story on Pagan church. glad to hear of what you and those groups are doing - if at any time i can be a help as a christian academic in this area do get in touch<br /><br />every blessingStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-21959417988088763312013-06-24T17:45:48.118+00:002013-06-24T17:45:48.118+00:00Stefi
i think the issue of the divine feminine i...Stefi <br /><br />i think the issue of the divine feminine is really important - a lot of people have traveled from Christianity to Pagan paths in recent years many have been women for whom this was a concern. ask any Christian theologian if God is male and they will tell you no - but much of our tradition in speech and worship would leaving you think God was male. <br /><br />i especially remember Pagans talking about relating to the divine as other and as similar due to human Gender and knowing this was a real insight. so for that reason and the simple truth that feminine and masculine are both part of the Christian understanding of God i think those of us who are part of that tradition need to recover the celebration of the divine feminine Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-42626492646549610962013-06-24T12:25:01.523+00:002013-06-24T12:25:01.523+00:00Thanks Steve for clarifying item I read in Saturda...Thanks Steve for clarifying item I read in Saturday's Telegraph. It seemed journalist's name suggested it's an imprecise overview. Had to check it out as am blogging about Phil Mason's Quantum Glory and, like me, he's familiar with new age religions, and now has a spiritual community in Oz. I agree with his pre-publication comment,'book is a must-read for anyone interested in exploring the relationship between heaven and earth!'. (If interested my brief intro is at (http://wp.me/p1Y1yB-3Df)Richard's Watchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14493800648344632833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-27652127662158899422013-06-24T09:49:39.930+00:002013-06-24T09:49:39.930+00:00Thanks Steve...Wise & helpful as I expected. F...Thanks Steve...Wise & helpful as I expected. Feel rather inclined to throttle a few journalists (in love, of course) - but as to your thoughts expressed here, I'm standing beside you.<br />Kathrynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09171138485811816831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-57750084588012652552013-06-24T08:44:36.046+00:002013-06-24T08:44:36.046+00:00We talked about this a little on BBC Sussex and Su...We talked about this a little on BBC Sussex and Surrey Sunday Breakfast yesterday using Roberts report (you can hear it here at around 50 mins http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01b8dwm). Robert certainly seems to be suggesting that the church is trying to recruit pagans and it's good that you've given the full picture here. Steve - you would probably know better than I but I'm sure I read somewhere that the Church of England excludes paganism from its interfaith remit, is that right? And if so, do you know why?BEYONDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05219842165265402786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-59629673028021946102013-06-24T08:29:41.672+00:002013-06-24T08:29:41.672+00:00Very glad to see your response to this, Steve. I t...Very glad to see your response to this, Steve. I think this is a case of journalists just not getting religion, as they don't look much further than the C of E and religion as a cultural veneer.<br /><br />Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-72320859456635103722013-06-24T08:20:22.813+00:002013-06-24T08:20:22.813+00:00Several of us read the article together and, as Pa...Several of us read the article together and, as Pagans, we felt it presented the church's view of Paganism as a "culture" with no depth and no "faith" thereby availing it an opportunity to introduce a "proper" faith to an otherwise rather vapid pop culture thing. We (rightly it seems) concluded that you'd almost certainly been misrepresented to give the story a sharper "angle".<br /><br /><br />Pagan Pride UK and other organisations with close links, such as the Centre for Pagan Studies and The Doreen Valiente Foundation are already in touch with branches (pun intended) of The Forest Church and have had some meaningful, valuable and productively enjoyable discussions with them. We believe in the concept of interfaith, at the heart of which really is the need to accept that even if there is one fundamental truth there are many paths to it and that we can still explore and celebrate our commonality without any pressure to change each other's beliefs. Frankly found my own beliefs deepening and my intellectual comprehension of those beliefs broadening as a result of these interfaith exchanges with Christians, Moslems and hindus, it's a rich landscape and media articles like this put up unfortunate "no entry" signs for amny people of all faiths.<br /><br />Thanks for posting this and allaying such fears! <br /><br /><br />Ashley MortimerCentre For Pagan Studieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04010875141753479109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-27989446725772003662013-06-24T07:25:18.220+00:002013-06-24T07:25:18.220+00:00Thanks for this response. I read the piece & d...Thanks for this response. I read the piece & did think it was very badly worded and it definitely didn't seem to have any foundation in proper research. I thinkyour views as set out above are very interesting and would certainly take the church forward. I am a former Christian (C of E) and would now describe myself as Pagan. I certainly prefer the embracing of the duality of male and female energies. steffihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03682898623652309007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-83168988196933394462012-02-25T01:12:17.124+00:002012-02-25T01:12:17.124+00:00Matt
as often totally with you ;o)Matt<br /><br />as often totally with you ;o)Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-60706159032486605482012-02-25T01:11:32.136+00:002012-02-25T01:11:32.136+00:00Peter
yes i think i got struck by that too - and a...Peter<br />yes i think i got struck by that too - and as i work more with those in New Age and Pagan paths the more i also meet people who often are also on the fringes of church but find the current institution hard to relate to. not sure of you know these but some good books on your question of understanding this - two by Alan Jamieson on churchless faith this is the first http://www.amazon.co.uk/Churchless-Faith-Alan-Jamieson/dp/0281054657/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1 an also two pieces of research on people leaving church http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gone-Good-Leaving-Returning-Century/dp/0716206331/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330132203&sr=1-2 and http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gone-But-Not-Forgotten-Returning/dp/0232522367/ref=pd_sim_b_1 all worth a read<br />and yes your personal comments make a lot of sense tooStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-2790408688073077372012-02-21T07:22:52.079+00:002012-02-21T07:22:52.079+00:00Steve, in broad agreement with you. I don't th...Steve, in broad agreement with you. I don't think we should be defending Christian nominalism, but neither should we be allowing faith to be defined by the faithless or abandoning the public discussion to religious and irreligious extremists.Matt Stonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06538611371112908744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-2852349949841590212012-02-19T14:24:23.324+00:002012-02-19T14:24:23.324+00:00Something that struck me from the survey is that a...Something that struck me from the survey is that actually the gap between self identification and belief in some core parts of Christianity is actually a lot smaller than I thought it would be - certainly over the resurrection question.<br /><br />What it does highlight for me is the probable numbers who share Christian beliefs but for one reason or another are outside of organised church communities. If churches successfully identify the reasons for this and can address those reasons, there would be a very remarkable opportunity for growth.<br /><br />Perhaps things like 'Fresh Expressions' are already starting to do that - though how much of Fresh Expressions is transference from one church to another and how much is it bringing in people who are generally 'unchurched'?<br /><br />Maybe partly because I am hovering around the edges of organised Christianity myself at the moment and still feel rather marginalised it's something that catches my attention. I am clearly far from alone.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10887515584820108688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-73960012629929528412012-02-18T18:42:07.678+00:002012-02-18T18:42:07.678+00:00peter
one of the issues is always that Dawkins in...peter<br /><br />one of the issues is always that Dawkins insists that certain views are truly Christian and thus can't handle that kind of nuance. you are right to raise that - there is similar in other areasStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-7589010339366757922012-02-18T16:20:14.378+00:002012-02-18T16:20:14.378+00:00Something that struck me was that 71% of responden...Something that struck me was that 71% of respondents believe that Jesus was resurrected in some form. In his analysis Dawkins concentrates on the split suggesting that only 32% believe in it since he seems to take the view that it was a purely physical event. I am not convinced - maybe my theology is a bit off but I always thought it was bit of both?<br /><br />Its fascinating that while other areas may score quite badly %wise, this one if you look at it as a belief in the resurrection in some form is pretty high, and I really can't see how Dawkins can be comfortable with it since whichever form you look at both are supernatural events and very far from the sort of naturalistic/materialist worldview he would like to see people taking.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10887515584820108688noreply@blogger.com