tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post112376674109095027..comments2023-09-05T08:55:56.301+00:00Comments on On Earth as in Heaven: The importance of the Hellenists (feedback from Taize)Stevehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-1124490590097296052005-08-19T22:29:00.000+00:002005-08-19T22:29:00.000+00:00Thanks Andrew I don’t think it would be right to i...Thanks Andrew<BR/><BR/> <BR/><BR/>I don’t think it would be right to impute from what I wrote that the mission of God always requires the renewal of the church by outsiders. Just that this is what God did in that situation…..i would add I think that’s what has also happened in other situations.<BR/><BR/> However the point is not the renewal of the church it is the equipping of the mission. What might have happened if the Jerusalem church said ‘no we’re Jews only and want to keep Jewish customs’. I guess the Hellenists could have founded a new ‘church’ that didn’t look like ‘Jewish church’ (ie not like ‘church’ at all) but they would also have lost much of the connection to those first hand witnesses of jesus. Would the gospels have been written as they are? I guess not. I am sure God could have sorted it but it would I think have been a worse case scenario. <BR/><BR/>My observation is that God is always using people from the outside to reform the church, and will do so again. Not cause it’s all about the church but cause God has not abandoned it. In the end why will a new 'church' (again used very loosely)or group of christians out there in the world be any better? Again its wheat and tares stuff, I think God is a reformer and not a revolutionary because he always has compassion on those who are week and falling, he will not break a bruised reed nor snuff out a smouldering wick.<BR/><BR/> yes in the end i think God does not always sit around waiting for the Church to catch up but i suspect he never stops calling the church to join him in mission, wherever and however far it has wandered.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-1124444645652235642005-08-19T09:44:00.000+00:002005-08-19T09:44:00.000+00:00Hello Steve,Thank you for your excellent article w...Hello Steve,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your excellent article which I read this morning over coffee and too many biscuits. Found it very thought-provoking and encouraging.<BR/><BR/>However, this phrase from the article has hit a nerve: "The mission of God required those who were from the outside to come in and question the certainties traditions and worship of the established religious system."<BR/><BR/>The thing is, I tried that for a while and now I just don't think it's worth it. I hope I have a strong, questing, ever-evolving faith, but I'm quite happy being outside the "church" from now on and don't feel the need to challenge it or say anything to it at all as I'm burnt out on doing this.<BR/><BR/>I only have a limited amount of energy. If I was committed to changing the "church" I would have got ordained. As it happens, I want to stay with the people outside, thank you very much. We have some great God conversations and I've learnt a lot. (I also enjoy meeting and praying with other Christians - I know that this is church as well, but your challenge was about "the established religious system".)<BR/><BR/>Don't want to bang my head against a brick wall any more. (Or a wooden wall if it's the Baptists.) Got other, more productive things I can be doing with my time and energy. The "church" just isn't worth it.<BR/><BR/>Andrew WoodingMike Kazybrid and Andrew Woodinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11380648312218939286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-1124381591519518102005-08-18T16:13:00.000+00:002005-08-18T16:13:00.000+00:00Steve, it was a pleasure to find your Blog for the...Steve, it was a pleasure to find your Blog for the first time today. We have corresponded before and I hope you found he right contacts in the California Bay Area. I will add a link to your Blog from my own at http://johnwmorehead.blogspot.com.John W. Moreheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01262542253787543738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-1124145784299327262005-08-15T22:43:00.000+00:002005-08-15T22:43:00.000+00:00Philgreat questions, and i think in many ways you ...Phil<BR/><BR/>great questions, and i think in many ways you hit the nail on the head. what so often happens in church mission is that we only reach those who share our culture, becasue we fail to truly become incarnate in anyone elses.<BR/><BR/>some in foreign mission however have gone further and we need to learn from them. (some have done a disasterous colonial imperialst opposite!) i remember one book by a missionary in africa who said it took him seven years to even begin to undertsand enough to communicate his faith in the cultue he lived in....it is really no different when we face the very real question you ask. what did these people do? the went and lived among the poeple they wanted to connect with, the listened long before they spoke. they became to some extent native and discvered in dialogue with those poeple what the 'Good news' really was in that place. too often christians have gone in and assumed their pre packed message will work...this is for the long haul, and requires an open ear to the place we are and to God that can bbe also open to the deeply surprising work of the Spirit, but it has been done.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-1124145319889716052005-08-15T22:35:00.000+00:002005-08-15T22:35:00.000+00:00hammertime nice story, and yes we have our places ...hammertime <BR/><BR/>nice story, and yes we have our places of comfort and challenge! what is interesting is how mine have changed over the last 25 years! but always God nudges me somehwere to experience something unexpected.<BR/><BR/>wish you God's blessing in seminary<BR/><BR/>I've been to your site too, and found some good discusion, sometime i may well post there too. but please do link, thanks for the courteousy of asking, i am very much for the interchange the web brings and appreciate peoples links.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04475918926743850643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-1124135586144439242005-08-15T19:53:00.000+00:002005-08-15T19:53:00.000+00:00Hi SteveGlad to hear that you too had a challengin...Hi Steve<BR/>Glad to hear that you too had a challenging/thought provoking time at Taize.<BR/><BR/>You say some interesting things about the need for people to stir up the church, provoke conflict etc. I think there is a certain inevitablity that those who do this will suffer persecution in some sense.<BR/><BR/>I also wonder whether those who try to "look from the perspective of those who have no church background and seek to discern what the gospel means in that world and explore what kind of church will emerge from the seed of the Gospel sown in such soil" run the risk of misrepresenting people, misreading culture etc. I say this not as a criticism, more of a reflection on my own actions, something to be considered perhaps.<BR/><BR/>I think the question I am really asking is this:<BR/>How can I, as somebody who has been brought up within Christendom, truly understand what Christendom looks like to someone who has not been brought up within Christendom?<BR/><BR/>PhilPhilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06650338713106764515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-1124132523888362772005-08-15T19:02:00.000+00:002005-08-15T19:02:00.000+00:00Steve, Nice work!I went to the orientation for m...Steve,<BR/> Nice work!<BR/><BR/>I went to the orientation for my seminary on Friday, and was actually a bit disconcerted by the concentration of white, short haired males. Mind you, I am a white, short-haired male.<BR/><BR/>I noticed a fellow with long, raggedy hair, glasses and facial hair. He was very reminicent of US hippies as well as pictures we see of Jesus. I though he might be a neat guy to get to know. As we were all walking to the 'food place' after the short worship service and briefing about the administration of the school, I heard him say "I couldn't wait to get out of there. Traditional services are creepy." <BR/><BR/>At first I felt kind of irritated. I thought, "Why the heck are you in seminary? If you can't deal with a worship style that's different than your own, you have a lot of growing to do." I chose not to sit with him at the food place, choosing instead to sit with the only black couple I could find.<BR/><BR/>Reading your post, I realize that he WAS dealing with it. I would have felt pretty uncomfortable in a charismatic service, but if the Lord had called me to that seminary, I would tough it out and grow through it. Perhaps this man is doing the same. It is my task to reach out to him. He certainly is on the fringe of my denomination...<BR/><BR/>I think I'll link to your post, if you don't mind.Hammertimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15497914450803388853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14624038.post-1123836160144234972005-08-12T08:42:00.000+00:002005-08-12T08:42:00.000+00:00Excellent post, Steve. I'd not thought of that par...Excellent post, Steve. I'd not thought of that parallel before.<BR/><BR/>pax et bonumSolidushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01942352297819203368noreply@blogger.com